The Paleo Diet- Scientific American

This has been an interesting thread.

I've not been stricken with bacterial overgrowth or issues, like some.

Really, moderation, more whole foods, good fats, more foods treated in careful ways, less processed foods, less preservatives, more water, less sugar, more exercise... it's not rocket science, honestly. Right?

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Your post was condescending.

I am sorry, but it was not. I went and re-read it and there is nothing I would change about it.

I also made no judgments about my co-workers. I said they do not eat well. They are all on WW next week, so they know they are not eating well. How is that any judgment that they have not already arrived at themselves????????????? The only one being confrontational here is you.

I added that WW contains processed foods. It does. I have tried WW in the past. It may well be a good diet for my co-workers to lose weight on. I do not believe it is a good diet for me, or for us (meaning those with J Pouches).

And you are also incorrectly judgmental about my co-workers, saying they do not know much about diets. One of them is extremely well informed about diets, at least as much as I am. She works weekends as a caterer so it is also her job to know a lot about diets. It was with her that diet was debated. She was an equal, not a lesser in the debate.

Weight Watchers is a perfectly fine diet for those with jpouches. Why do you lump all jpouchers into one group and say that it's not a good diet for us? That doesn't make sense to me. Your posts aren't very helpful to those that might be seeking information about weight loss because you are advocating only one way to eat healthy and lose weight. And that's not true.

Sue

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Why do you lump all jpouchers into one group and say that it's not a good diet for us?

The only thing I do not like about the Weight Watcher's Diet is the inclusion of processed carbs. I suppose that it could be argued that processed carbs in small quantities is not harmful, although this goes against what I am hearing from the so called Shenite theory on reducing bacterial overgrowth.

I would be interested in knowing if someone at Weight Watchers has developed an alternate version of the diet that has no processed carbs in it. That might be ideal for J pouchers looking to lose weight and avoid bacterial overgrowth.

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Your posts aren't very helpful to those that might be seeking information about weight loss because you are advocating only one way to eat healthy and lose weight.

What's not helpful is a bunch of posts that basically say, "it's whatever works best for you." Many people who come on the board have no idea what will work best for them, and the reason they come on to the Board is to try and find out what is working for others. That is why they come on the board - to hear opinions and advice from others. You have basically said that my opinion sucks, or is "wrong." Maybe it is, but I would rather have an opinion to share than say "it is whatever works best for you." I don't think posts that say that are helpful.

I happen to state my own opinions forcefully at times. Actually, advocacy is what I do for a profession, so this should not be a surprise to anyone. I have never claimed that my opinions on this topic are better than anyone else's. On the other hand, I do not believe in having any reluctance to share what I believe in. Maybe it will help someone.

I guess I didn't see where TE Marie said that co-workers don't know much about diets. CT - perhaps you're just not aware that some of the things that you've posted are confrontational. Putting down the SCD diet because it doesn't include chick peas or soybeans. (Perhaps you are unaware of some of the negative aspects of soy products.) You did put down your co-workers by stating that they (all-inclusive)"do not eat very well and have gained weight." You made the statement that 'they' seem to think WW is superior to paleo and other diets. You are putting down WW because it "allows processed carbs." You also put down WW as not being a good diet for j-pouchers. You clarify your statement about WW by later stating that you do not like the inclusion of processed carbs. That's just silly. If I started telling everyone to stop eating meat because I'm a vegetarian and I'm doing just fine and there's all sorts of scientific and anecdotal back-up for my position so it must be the only way to eat, that would be equally silly. If you don't like processed carbs then the WW diet could still work if you eliminate processed carbs. WW doesn't dictate what YOU eat, there are many choices. I'd say that much of the foods or recipes on WW don't work for me because I'm a vegetarian. However, I don't think that WW should have to 'develop' a whole new category for vegetarians. I'm smart enough to figure out what works for me.

You (and some others) have bacterial overgrowth. I do not. Many others do not. But it seems that you're determined to make people believe in a paleo diet. Why is that so important to you? I would think that it would be satisfactory just to know that the diet works for you and that you've lost weight on it. I just don't get it when someone 'finds' something and then thinks that everyone else WILL benefit from it. It's sort of a born-again mentality.

You've also put down processed foods (which aren't all bad), the people that make them, and movie theater owners for charging so much money for the food/drink at their concession stands.

It seems to me that you have implied that the paleo diet may 'cure' your pouchitis. If that's not what you implied then I misread what you posted.

Again, maybe you're not aware that some of the things you post seem very judgmental. If that's not your intention, maybe you could try not using others as examples of bad behavior.

And it does seems to me that you have implied that the paleo diet may 'cure' your pouchitis. If that's not what you implied then I misread what you posted.

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You have basically said that my opinion sucks, or is "wrong." Maybe it is, but I would rather have an opinion to share than say "it is whatever works best for you." I don't think posts that say that are helpful.

No, she did not say that. And she did not say "it is whatever works best for you." However, what she has done is consistently told people what foods work for her, what supplements work for her, what kind of hydration products work or don't work for her. If someone comes on the board and says that they are afraid to eat salad, Sue will mention that she eats salads all the time and that there are NO bad foods. She will say that it's completely individual and that each person should try a variety of things to see what works best for their own system. That's certainly not the same as only saying "it's whatever works best for you." I'm sure you've seen that Sue has never dismissed people by saying only that and I don't think it's fair that you implied that.

Just like the coloned population, one size does not fit all. Many people are allergic to peanuts and that portion of the paleo diet wouldn't work for them. Others are allergic to berries or shellfish. That aspect of the paleo diet would not work for them. Soybeans have been getting some bad press lately. I read where large consumption of soy products can cause breast growth in men.

kathy

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And it does seems to me that you have implied that the paleo diet may 'cure' your pouchitis.

What I specifically said was that I am waiting for the results of my scope on June 21. I said that I am reserving judgment on the impact of the Paleo Diet until then. I have said this many times. My goal in going on the diet was never to lose weight but to bring down the inflammation in my neoterminal ileum which is severely narrowed at the pouch inlet. My doctors told me after my MRI Enterography that they were deeply concerned about the narrowing or stricturing of my bowel in this area due to inflammation and that it had to be brought down. This is why I was put on Entocort and this is why, after things spiralled out of control while on Entocort, I decided I needed to make serious lifestyle and diet changes which had to be permanent.

Whether it has worked is still unknown, although I feel pretty good.

Lastly I am completely shocked by your post and the some of the others. I prefer to speak my mind when I post but it seems not possible that I can do that here, so I am very disinclined to post here again. I have had that feeling for a long time around this board. Perhaps, my posting style just does not work on a board like this. I do think this board is valuable as as source of information but the interactive part does not seem to work as well for me here as it does elsewhere on the Internet and in real life. I have no explanation for that - possibly it has to do with personalities, including my own.

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I prefer to speak my mind when I post

And others are doing the same.

kathy

I was on WW for 18 months and was describing the good tools I learned and we still use WW recipes. I was in no way putting down your co-workers. I know how it feels to be overweight. I gained a lot of weight when pregnant and from taking prednisone.

I'm not a trained speaker, as an attorney, but have have advised people my entire career and life and have found that it is better when you talk with people than to people.

We are here to share our ideas and I appreciate everything I have learned on here. What works for one may not for another.

I was ticked off at what I perceived to be some arrogant posts on your part CT. In the past you have been helpful and I think your heart is in the correct place. I hope your test results are all that you hope them to be. I'm hopeful that in the future we are able to quit being offensive or defensive and just share.

First and only warning!

OK, I am not pointing fingers here, so anybody who takes offense or thinks I am pointing the finger at them is just going to have to deal with it. It is not about one specific thing or person, but the whole thing. I am guilty too for trying to herd cats and doing a lousy job of it.

This thread has gone off the rails and I am very close to closing it. Either most of us are doing a terrible job of expressing opinions without it turning into a flame war, or my interpretation of this thread is completely wrong. There are too many posts that come off as invitations to conflict and when explanations are offered, they wind up becoming further invitations.

This is NOT why we are here! This is the opposite of the goals of this board. Newbies landing on this thread probably think they landed in a heated debate room and run away. We are not here to debate or solve issues beyond our scope. We need to agree that we all have our own idea of dietary correctness. The original post was simply to show some humor about rigid dietary guidelines, and it seems that the humor went out the window with being understanding.

So, here I am PLEADING with EVERYONE to please review your post before submitting it. Pay attention to the tone you set by it. Do NOT assume that everyone else KNOWS that you mean no ill will, because if it can seem preachy or like a lecture, then it probably is.

Peace, truce...

Jan

P.S. FYI- This was intended to sound preachy and like a lecture!

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Really, moderation, more whole foods, good fats, more foods treated in careful ways, less processed foods, less preservatives, more water, less sugar, more exercise... it's not rocket science, honestly. Right?

If there were a like button on this board I would press it now.

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Peace, truce...

Here too. We're in the same boat. Let's paddle together.

I find it interesting that the famous dentist, Weston A Price, traveled the world and found that societies that ate whole foods had naturally straight teeth an absence of modern day diseases. And the one thing that these societies had in common, is that they aye whole foods. Whether they were vegetarian vegan or ate a diet of just meat and milk, they had naturally straight teeth. When processed and canned food was added, that's when the crooked teeth and modern diseases started. It's too bad the companies that have enough money to do research are only interested in drugs which will make some money. And nobody has a bunch of extra money to research diet because there's no return benefit and they can't really make any money on it and patent it.

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What's not helpful is a bunch of posts that basically say, "it's whatever works best for you." Many people who come on the board have no idea what will work best for them, and the reason they come on to the Board is to try and find out what is working for others. That is why they come on the board - to hear opinions and advice from others. You have basically said that my opinion sucks, or is "wrong." Maybe it is, but I would rather have an opinion to share than say "it is whatever works best for you." I don't think posts that say that are helpful.

Thank you for that - nothing drives me crazier than when I ask a question and it is met by responses directing me to "figure out what works best for you." That's obvious and I don't need to be told that. I think anyone in search of information, for the most part, is smart enough to know that they aren't obligated to follow the advice given. They're just in search of data/evidence to process as they see fit. I've found your contributions to this thread rather enlightening so I don't know why some are so intent upon shutting you up.

With that out of the way, is there any anecdotal evidence here regarding the diet's impact upon pouch output. In theory, if bacterial overgrowth is reduced, would that not reduce volume?

In theory, that makes a lot of sense, because that is how taking antibiotics thickens things up (a lot of volume of stool is bacteria).

I am not sure that the total volume would be affected that much with the Paleo Diet, since there is the emphasis on fresh fruit and vegetables, which add a lot of bulk. So, probably a trade-off. My thinking is perhaps the quality of the output is improved, with less gas, less smell, slower transit from less irritation. That sort of thing. My personal experience has been that fewer carbs makes for a quieter gut, but I have not sworn off bread and cereal altogether. There are a few people here who have been on the diet for a few years and have seen dramatic improvement in pouch function. Olive Oil is one, and she has some research behind it from her doctor. If you do a search for Paleo Diet, you will find quite a few hits.

Jan

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I think anyone in search of information, for the most part, is smart enough to know that they aren't obligated to follow the advice given. They're just in search of data/evidence to process as they see fit. I've found your contributions to this thread rather enlightening so I don't know why some are so intent upon shutting you up.

Thank you for your response. I am not going to belabor the issue but I have gotten a similar response on my posts on a number of other issues in a number of other threads. On those occasions, the same sentiments as yours have been suggested to me by some other posters in PMs to me. I think you have in your response stumbled onto one reason why - a perception by the would be "censors" that some posters are not smart enough to evaluate that they are not required to follow the advice or opinion given. Although that point of view would actually be more condescending and "arrogant" than anything I have posted in this thread. If I had been a new poster making the same posts, the response likely would not have been the same.

In any event, the thread did get way off track and it was not my intention to have it get off track, but just provide information and in some cases purely anecdotal stories and evidence, some of which was intended to be tongue in cheek but obviously did not come off that way. Much of the evidence supporting or against any diet is anecdotal and not based on any "expert witness evidence" that would survive a Daubert or Porter motion challenge to such evidence filed in Court.