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Informative, if not amusing article, Sue! I like the way it poked holes in assumptions the promoters make.
While I do have some Paleo diet leanings, I don't buy into the strict interpretations of it. For me, it helps accentuate the reality that, for whatever reason, high levels of sugar, fat, and salt in our diet seem to create a craving leading to overindulging. Limiting those foods does help me when it comes to reducing intake. I have to admit it too, that a high carb diet also does not so well for me (weight-wise and pouch function-wise).
I imagine that most people who go for it wind up not being very strict overall. I like to eat cake...
Jan
While I do have some Paleo diet leanings, I don't buy into the strict interpretations of it. For me, it helps accentuate the reality that, for whatever reason, high levels of sugar, fat, and salt in our diet seem to create a craving leading to overindulging. Limiting those foods does help me when it comes to reducing intake. I have to admit it too, that a high carb diet also does not so well for me (weight-wise and pouch function-wise).
I imagine that most people who go for it wind up not being very strict overall. I like to eat cake...
Jan
....and I like french fries. Probably not available back then.
kathy
kathy
I guess I can no longer ask "what would Grok eat?" when seeking dietary guidance. Dang scientists.
Interesting thread on FB. This girl posted this about her MS.
“I was called in for a private meeting with my doctor, who explained, holding my hand, that I had MS, Multiple Sclerosis. I left that office with a pile of papers with prescriptions for several different drugs and a cocktail of 6 antidepressants and a prognosis of maximum 10 years until a lifetime spent in a wheelchair…I never took the drugs. Not one of them…I ditched all grains in 2003 – and everything else that might promote inflammation: processed foods, low-fat processed dairy, nuts, seeds, seed oils, fructose, and nightshades…I have been lesion-free for the last seven years. And I can safely say that my future will not be spent in a wheelchair.” ~ Eve Haapala, page 84 The Paleo Miracle Book
“I was called in for a private meeting with my doctor, who explained, holding my hand, that I had MS, Multiple Sclerosis. I left that office with a pile of papers with prescriptions for several different drugs and a cocktail of 6 antidepressants and a prognosis of maximum 10 years until a lifetime spent in a wheelchair…I never took the drugs. Not one of them…I ditched all grains in 2003 – and everything else that might promote inflammation: processed foods, low-fat processed dairy, nuts, seeds, seed oils, fructose, and nightshades…I have been lesion-free for the last seven years. And I can safely say that my future will not be spent in a wheelchair.” ~ Eve Haapala, page 84 The Paleo Miracle Book
Interesting, but is it possible that she was misdiagnosed? Also, MS is one of those unpredictable diseases. Still, eating better can't hurt...
Jan
Jan
I was also thinking it might have been a misdiagnosis. I am wary of any diet or supplement that professes that it is a cure for medical conditions. I feel it could be dangerous to someone who actually has MS and decides that all they have to do is go on a paleo diet and they'll be cured. Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying various things in tandem with sound medical procedures, but a statement that the paleo diet or apricot pits or praying will cure a condition should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
Eve Haapala's story is in the Paleo book which means her story is to help sell the book. There's not a thing wrong with that, but it's not proof of anything.
kathy
Eve Haapala's story is in the Paleo book which means her story is to help sell the book. There's not a thing wrong with that, but it's not proof of anything.
kathy
http://www.terrywahls.com/
An MD treated at the Cleavland Clinic for years, whose health continued to decline despite seeing the best docs. Reversed her MS with paleo. Is currently funding trials of her diet on MS through her foundation from book sales.
I think there are quite a few paleo devotees suffering from orthorexia. Probably the same for a certain percentage of followers of any diet. I don't think I'd have been so strict with it if we weren't dealing with a medical issue. Usually the ones who follow it to a tee are the ones with health problems. Anyway, I felt great on it and lost a ton of weight and my hypoglycemia diagnosis (and was an organic food eating vegetarian/vegan to begin with). We stick to it as much as possible atm. It's not easy to do for sure.
An MD treated at the Cleavland Clinic for years, whose health continued to decline despite seeing the best docs. Reversed her MS with paleo. Is currently funding trials of her diet on MS through her foundation from book sales.
I think there are quite a few paleo devotees suffering from orthorexia. Probably the same for a certain percentage of followers of any diet. I don't think I'd have been so strict with it if we weren't dealing with a medical issue. Usually the ones who follow it to a tee are the ones with health problems. Anyway, I felt great on it and lost a ton of weight and my hypoglycemia diagnosis (and was an organic food eating vegetarian/vegan to begin with). We stick to it as much as possible atm. It's not easy to do for sure.
Tincan,
Lol. Nope, back to making spreadsheets looking at the pufa content vs omega 6/3 ratio of various nuts in order to help me decide which nut butter to put in my kids' breakfast smoothy. Just joking, of course...heh heh.
Lol. Nope, back to making spreadsheets looking at the pufa content vs omega 6/3 ratio of various nuts in order to help me decide which nut butter to put in my kids' breakfast smoothy. Just joking, of course...heh heh.
Well, OK then! I do believe that there are medical rules broken all the time. When it is appropriately documented, big changes happen.
Jan
Jan
And I know a Crohn's patient who also gained significant remission by becoming a macrobiotic. She ceased taking all medication and swore that her diet was the reason for her remission, which it may have been. Sadly after 7 years, the diet either stopped working, or it was a placebo as she fell out of remission and had to start taking medication again.
When I had UC I fell for every UC diet out there; SCD, vegetarianism, non-vegetarianism, etc. I never saw a whit of difference in my symptoms. I'm not a believer that the Paleo diet (what a ridiculous name) can cure diseases but I do think eating healthy and in moderation can prevent and reduce symptoms of some diseases.
Sue
When I had UC I fell for every UC diet out there; SCD, vegetarianism, non-vegetarianism, etc. I never saw a whit of difference in my symptoms. I'm not a believer that the Paleo diet (what a ridiculous name) can cure diseases but I do think eating healthy and in moderation can prevent and reduce symptoms of some diseases.
Sue
I'm also wary of diet "cures" for disease, though as with anything else, a healthy lifestyle including diet can go a long way to improving your overall wellbeing and yes, even managing some symptoms. That being said, I think the fundamentals of the paleo-diet are sound, in the sense that I think it's a good idea to eliminate refined and processed food products. But as for the diet on the whole, I think it's highly questionable. There is so much genetic difference between what we eat now and what early humans ate. Even "organic" products have been specifically selected, over generations and generations of farming, so that they would hardly resemble the original food that humans consumed 10, 15 or 20 thousand years ago. Not to mention, I found the chart in the article very interesting, comparing the differences in hunter-gatherer diets by geographic region--obviously there are hugely different dietary distributions by region, so it's really impossible to tailor the paleo-diet to say you are eating exactly the way human ancestors did (which ancestors? The Inuit eat a diet of 95% animal protein; the bulk of the !Kung diet is seeds and nuts... which one is correct? Which one is better? Exactly).
But, I don't mean to knock anything. I know and have known many people who follow vegan, gluten free, and even more out there things like the the Atkins diet, and have done so with some success. My hairdressor says they have effectively controlled her son's seizures with a gluten-free/dairy free diet. A cure? Probably not, since it would then be prescribed for every person with epilepsy, but if it helps his symptoms, then more power to it. The bottom line is, we all have different food sensitivities, and what works for one person may be poison to another--that's why there can't be one universal, cure-all diet.
Anyway, on the broader spectrum, there is nothing wrong with wanting to eat better food. It's no secret that Westerners, particularly North Americans, are having a food/diet crisis. Obviously, more people need to think critically about their food, and ask WHAT they are eating and WHERE it is coming from. I am a proponent of the old saying, "don't eat what you can't pronounce." I'm totally about eating locally, avoiding chemicals and additives/preservatives, understanding how our food is raised, etc (i.e. I will only eat free range eggs). I think that goes a long way to good health, more so than relying solely on fad diets that are based on shaky at best science.
But, I don't mean to knock anything. I know and have known many people who follow vegan, gluten free, and even more out there things like the the Atkins diet, and have done so with some success. My hairdressor says they have effectively controlled her son's seizures with a gluten-free/dairy free diet. A cure? Probably not, since it would then be prescribed for every person with epilepsy, but if it helps his symptoms, then more power to it. The bottom line is, we all have different food sensitivities, and what works for one person may be poison to another--that's why there can't be one universal, cure-all diet.
Anyway, on the broader spectrum, there is nothing wrong with wanting to eat better food. It's no secret that Westerners, particularly North Americans, are having a food/diet crisis. Obviously, more people need to think critically about their food, and ask WHAT they are eating and WHERE it is coming from. I am a proponent of the old saying, "don't eat what you can't pronounce." I'm totally about eating locally, avoiding chemicals and additives/preservatives, understanding how our food is raised, etc (i.e. I will only eat free range eggs). I think that goes a long way to good health, more so than relying solely on fad diets that are based on shaky at best science.
Don't know. It gave my daughter her longest remission but then stopped working. When she was doing well on it, her blood work was excellent, nutritional levels were excellent. I do know it works well for some (remission/cure whatever)but, like meds, not all obviously. If someone's inclined, i think it's well worth a try. And I'm a former vegetarian/vegan so it was not something I would have embraced if I didn't feel I had to. But, yeah, it can get a bit silly and obsessive, though if the scd had worked for you/us I suppose we might be singing its praises too (I know I would).
Also, in Terry Wahls' case, she came up with her diet after doing years of research on her own. She didn't just decide to blindly follow "paleo". It just so happens that she ended up with a version of that diet. For anyone who's interested here's her TED talk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
Time will tell if her results are replicable but apparently it looks promising and she and her CC MDs feel they will be. Will be interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
Time will tell if her results are replicable but apparently it looks promising and she and her CC MDs feel they will be. Will be interesting.
I agree - eating well is great. Fad diets come and go.
A number of years ago I read an article about a young boy who had severe seizures every single day. His seizures were so bad that he had to wear a helmet to prevent head injury. His parents were into healthy eating, particularly making sure that everything was non-fat. That meant their son was also eating a non-fat diet. They started introducing fat into his diet and his seizures stopped.
The stories of people being cured come from books and websites that are selling something. They will only have the positive outcomes. That's the problem I have. I won't see the other side of the coin when there's money to be made. There are people who swear by the SCD diet. But many, many more who say that it did nothing for them. There were people who swore by the Fruitarian diet and the Breatharian diet (now how could any thinking person believe that one could exist purely on air after getting to that point by eating only yellow food?). You will lose weight on both of those diets - especially the latter.
I hope I'm not sounding too negative, that certainly isn't my intention. As I've said before, I'm a vegetarian, but I don't think vegetarianism suits everyone. One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is what is added to what we eat and what is fed to what we eat. Loading meat and fowl with antibiotics and growth hormones means we're ingesting antibiotics and hormones. Is there any reason not to think that antibiotic resistant health problems aren't caused, in part, by what is given animals? Eating organic meat and fowl is great, but unless you're there to see the entire process, you can't be sure that you're getting exactly what you're paying for. Whole Foods has been found to 'tweak' their labeling. At least at the store in my neck of the woods, they were selling farmed salmon as wild salmon.
The point is, due diligence.
kathy
A number of years ago I read an article about a young boy who had severe seizures every single day. His seizures were so bad that he had to wear a helmet to prevent head injury. His parents were into healthy eating, particularly making sure that everything was non-fat. That meant their son was also eating a non-fat diet. They started introducing fat into his diet and his seizures stopped.
The stories of people being cured come from books and websites that are selling something. They will only have the positive outcomes. That's the problem I have. I won't see the other side of the coin when there's money to be made. There are people who swear by the SCD diet. But many, many more who say that it did nothing for them. There were people who swore by the Fruitarian diet and the Breatharian diet (now how could any thinking person believe that one could exist purely on air after getting to that point by eating only yellow food?). You will lose weight on both of those diets - especially the latter.
I hope I'm not sounding too negative, that certainly isn't my intention. As I've said before, I'm a vegetarian, but I don't think vegetarianism suits everyone. One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is what is added to what we eat and what is fed to what we eat. Loading meat and fowl with antibiotics and growth hormones means we're ingesting antibiotics and hormones. Is there any reason not to think that antibiotic resistant health problems aren't caused, in part, by what is given animals? Eating organic meat and fowl is great, but unless you're there to see the entire process, you can't be sure that you're getting exactly what you're paying for. Whole Foods has been found to 'tweak' their labeling. At least at the store in my neck of the woods, they were selling farmed salmon as wild salmon.
The point is, due diligence.
kathy
quote:One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is what is added to what we eat and what is fed to what we eat. Loading meat and fowl with antibiotics and growth hormones means we're ingesting antibiotics and hormones. Is there any reason not to think that antibiotic resistant health problems aren't caused, in part, by what is given animals? Eating organic meat and fowl is great, but unless you're there to see the entire process, you can't be sure that you're getting exactly what you're paying for.
Yes. Pretty much this. This is my concern with food and that is why I always ask WHAT am I eating and WHERE is it coming from. This is one thing we can and should be concerned about, and we need to take more control in selecting healthier options, and in turn demanding that our food be sourced responsibly.
Yeah, I agree with that as well. I know it's a slippery slope but the more I read about Monsanto/round up and GMOs the more I feel like I'm on the road to crazy conspiracy theorist. Not something I want to be, but it's not hard to get there once you start looking at what's happening to our food supply.
I think there is one thing that everyone can agree on, regardless of what they believe diet can do or not do. That is that diet trends like the Paleo diet, Atkins, whatever cause people to actually pay attention to what they are eating. That can be a really good thing, whether you care about free range eggs, organic produce or meats, or water quality.
The dietician at my weight loss class called it "mindful eating" as opposed to "mindless eating." When you scarf down a giant box of buttered popcorn during a movie, that is mindless, because you aren't thinking about being hungry and eating a meal. It is not that buttered popcorn is evil and you should never have any, but that you should be aware of what and why you are eating. For my husband and I, THAT sort of eating has been the hardest habit to break.
I still like stuff I know I shouldn't eat, like fast food or snacks. But, when I do eat it, I am aware of it, and even feel a little guilty about it. I guess that keeps me from going crazy on it.
But, regarding "cures," I think that people sometimes assume they are cured when they are in remission. Then they get surprised or depressed if there is a relapse. It does not mean that the diet, drug, or whatever failed. Relapses happen no matter what you do, so if you relapse, you just treat it, get back on the regime that had been working before and hope you have another long period of remission. With chronic autoimmune disease, you just set yourself up for disappointment if you think remission is being cured. I even was there, when I was in remission for 15 years. I had stopped my medication after about 3-4 years, and thought I had "wished" my UC away. Mind over matter, that sort of thing. But, no, it was just a long remission. Plain and simple.
Jan
The dietician at my weight loss class called it "mindful eating" as opposed to "mindless eating." When you scarf down a giant box of buttered popcorn during a movie, that is mindless, because you aren't thinking about being hungry and eating a meal. It is not that buttered popcorn is evil and you should never have any, but that you should be aware of what and why you are eating. For my husband and I, THAT sort of eating has been the hardest habit to break.
I still like stuff I know I shouldn't eat, like fast food or snacks. But, when I do eat it, I am aware of it, and even feel a little guilty about it. I guess that keeps me from going crazy on it.
But, regarding "cures," I think that people sometimes assume they are cured when they are in remission. Then they get surprised or depressed if there is a relapse. It does not mean that the diet, drug, or whatever failed. Relapses happen no matter what you do, so if you relapse, you just treat it, get back on the regime that had been working before and hope you have another long period of remission. With chronic autoimmune disease, you just set yourself up for disappointment if you think remission is being cured. I even was there, when I was in remission for 15 years. I had stopped my medication after about 3-4 years, and thought I had "wished" my UC away. Mind over matter, that sort of thing. But, no, it was just a long remission. Plain and simple.
Jan
I have never eaten popcorn at movies nor have I ever fully understood this particular tradition. Most movie theaters make more money on concessions than on the actual movies. 85% profits on concessions!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://business.time.com/2009/...t-concession-stands/
Generally speaking most of the food being sold at movie theaters is very unhealthy stuff: candy, popcorn and soda, laden with sugar and carbs. It is seemingly a learned behavior to eat these foods, but I think it can also be unlearned. Apart from health issues, there are also economic common sense issues. Next time you go to the movies think about the prices you are paying for this junk. They are insane. If you have to eat junk, you can buy the same junk at a 7-11 for less than half the price.
The only thing I ever buy at movie concession stands is bottled water or Vitamin Water Zero so as to maintain hydration during a longer film. These too are overpriced, but you have no choice as they do not let you bring your own beverage of choice into the theater.
http://business.time.com/2009/...t-concession-stands/
Generally speaking most of the food being sold at movie theaters is very unhealthy stuff: candy, popcorn and soda, laden with sugar and carbs. It is seemingly a learned behavior to eat these foods, but I think it can also be unlearned. Apart from health issues, there are also economic common sense issues. Next time you go to the movies think about the prices you are paying for this junk. They are insane. If you have to eat junk, you can buy the same junk at a 7-11 for less than half the price.
The only thing I ever buy at movie concession stands is bottled water or Vitamin Water Zero so as to maintain hydration during a longer film. These too are overpriced, but you have no choice as they do not let you bring your own beverage of choice into the theater.
Popcorn isn't unhealthy. One can have popcorn without the butter. I don't know about other people's local theaters but ours serves lots of options.
The reviews about Vitamin water aren't all that great either. Vitamin water zero has an abundance of additives and unknown ingredients. There even may be some findings that drinking water in platic bottles is bad. Personally, I don't drink water from plastic bottles because I don't like the taste that the plastic imparts.
Many years ago, it was 'found' that cranberries caused cancer. My biologist cousin noted that cranberries could perhaps cause cancer but you'd have to eat a traincar load everyday.
Conspiracies can be found in anything but that doesn't mean it's true.
kathy
The reviews about Vitamin water aren't all that great either. Vitamin water zero has an abundance of additives and unknown ingredients. There even may be some findings that drinking water in platic bottles is bad. Personally, I don't drink water from plastic bottles because I don't like the taste that the plastic imparts.
Many years ago, it was 'found' that cranberries caused cancer. My biologist cousin noted that cranberries could perhaps cause cancer but you'd have to eat a traincar load everyday.
Conspiracies can be found in anything but that doesn't mean it's true.
kathy
If you have to get a drink at a movie theater, the choices are soda, other sugary drinks, bottled water, and (at some theaters) Vitamin Water Zero. In this situation, when one has to drink, one has to make a lesser of evils choice. Bottled water and Vitamin Water Zero are clearly better choices than sugary sodas and the other drinks offered. I have not seen better choices at my local theaters.
That's exactly the point. There are choices and we all have to personally make our own choices based on what is available, personal taste, and how one's body reacts to various products.
I think most theaters also offer hot or iced tea, or coffee.
kathy
I think most theaters also offer hot or iced tea, or coffee.
kathy
MY point was that none of this stuff will kill you or make you sick in small quantities, but the idea is to be conscious of what you do. At least for me, the point of eating popcorn during a movie goes, it is just fun. It is OK to do stuff just because it is fun or feels good. My whole life I literally could not eat popcorn when I had a colon because it caused UC flares, so it was a real treat to be able to join others when eating it. And, yeah, I know that the theaters were making a bundle off of it. No different than a restaurant making bundle on a glass of wine I don't need.
But, now I know I have a limit to how many and what sort of calories I can consume without having to let out my pants. So, I choose not to eat popcorn during movies. I don't even drink water. I can sit for a few hours without dehydrating.
Jan
But, now I know I have a limit to how many and what sort of calories I can consume without having to let out my pants. So, I choose not to eat popcorn during movies. I don't even drink water. I can sit for a few hours without dehydrating.
Jan
The Paleo diet is not new and not a fad diet. It is a lifestyle and Atkins actually ripped his diet off from the paleo diet.
SCD isn't that much different, but dairy is included in most recipes I read on SCD and that doesn't make sense to me.
Shen at CC told me to eat a high-fat diet so that is a paleo way of eating. Very high fat. I suffer from small bowel bacteria overgrowth so on paleo it doesn't grow as much, bacteria doesn't grow in fat and can gain healthy nutrients and calories when done properly.
SCD isn't that much different, but dairy is included in most recipes I read on SCD and that doesn't make sense to me.
Shen at CC told me to eat a high-fat diet so that is a paleo way of eating. Very high fat. I suffer from small bowel bacteria overgrowth so on paleo it doesn't grow as much, bacteria doesn't grow in fat and can gain healthy nutrients and calories when done properly.
vanessavy,
My own GI is a Shen disciple, having trained under Shen at Cleveland Clinic, and he subscribes to the same "Shenite theory" on bacterial overgrowth. Most doctors who are treating inflammed J Pouches or small bowels will not come out and endorse the Paleo Diet, yet they will tell you not to eat a lot of processed carbs and sugars. I have spoken to two dieticians, a trainer at my gym, my PCP and my GI, and none of these professionals have voiced objection to the Paleo Diet principles being implemented by someone like me, who has a long 18 year history of J Pouch inflammation. You have to read between the lines on some of these things and if you do, you basically learn that the lack of objection is essentially equivalent to an endorsement.
My own personal opinion is that the reason why they do not endorse the diet per se is that it is not politically correct for them to be known to be advising diets viewed by some as a "fad", even to some of their patients who may benefit from it. They fear being seen as whack jobs, quacks or practitioners of pseudo-medicine by their professional colleagues. Doctors seek peer acceptance and care about their reputations just like any other professionals. They avoid advocacy of theories and tend to assess diets based on the results. As I mentioned in another thread, my PCP is only concerned with my weight and my blood test results, and so long as both are good, he does not care how I get there.
My own GI is a Shen disciple, having trained under Shen at Cleveland Clinic, and he subscribes to the same "Shenite theory" on bacterial overgrowth. Most doctors who are treating inflammed J Pouches or small bowels will not come out and endorse the Paleo Diet, yet they will tell you not to eat a lot of processed carbs and sugars. I have spoken to two dieticians, a trainer at my gym, my PCP and my GI, and none of these professionals have voiced objection to the Paleo Diet principles being implemented by someone like me, who has a long 18 year history of J Pouch inflammation. You have to read between the lines on some of these things and if you do, you basically learn that the lack of objection is essentially equivalent to an endorsement.
My own personal opinion is that the reason why they do not endorse the diet per se is that it is not politically correct for them to be known to be advising diets viewed by some as a "fad", even to some of their patients who may benefit from it. They fear being seen as whack jobs, quacks or practitioners of pseudo-medicine by their professional colleagues. Doctors seek peer acceptance and care about their reputations just like any other professionals. They avoid advocacy of theories and tend to assess diets based on the results. As I mentioned in another thread, my PCP is only concerned with my weight and my blood test results, and so long as both are good, he does not care how I get there.
Oh when I told Shen I was on Candida diet he almost fell over in laughter :-) Most doctors don't believe in most diets by name but I do know Geeta is trying to have Shen write a book on diet so we shall see if it happens!
We've been told by a couple of GIs that they're having good success with the SCD (not ours but other opinions). One was at Stanford and they're now doing a trial of the scd. Results will be interesting - it's for Crohn's.
One difference I noticed between SCD and Paleo diets is the prejudice demonstrated by SCD against soybeans and chick peas. I assume that this is for caloric reasons. However if you are not eating any processed carbs at all, soybeans and chick peas are among the best sources of complex carbs out there, not to mention the protein content. This is where I think the SCD takes on vestiges of Weight Watchers and old school diets that emphasize calorie intake control rather than food group or category control.
Edamame is a huge staple in my diet and I don't know where I would be now without it. If that is my vegetable carb source then I can eat a 4 ounce portion of protein such as chicken or salmon and perhaps 3 small chunks of fresh pineapple and it's a nice balanced meal. That is actually my typical dinner and it includes edamame.
Edamame is a huge staple in my diet and I don't know where I would be now without it. If that is my vegetable carb source then I can eat a 4 ounce portion of protein such as chicken or salmon and perhaps 3 small chunks of fresh pineapple and it's a nice balanced meal. That is actually my typical dinner and it includes edamame.
The Paleo diet may not be new or a fad but it is fundamentally misleading. It purports to be derived from paleolithic hunter/gatherer societies and thus more in tune with our natural selves. As spelled out in the scientific american article there are at least a couple of serious problems with this assertion.
First, and as Spooky mentions, there were undoubtedly a number of different diets given the geographic and cultural diversity prevalent during that period (perhaps even Neandertal diets according to recent research). So which one is the standard? How was that determined?
Second, there is the assumption that we have somehow stopped evolving since our hunter-gatherer days and are not capable of processing the newer food sources emerging from the agricultural revolution. This doesn't make much sense either (also discussed in the Sci-Am article).
I'm not saying that the Paleo diet doesn't have positive attributes and therefore can't be beneficial, but to the degree it presents itself as being enlightened by principles of human evolution, then it loses credibility. In addition, and as I said in another thread, should it lead people away from consuming perfectly nutritious food (e.g. beans, whole grains) then it can become a zero sum game if not detrimental.
With respect to the comment by CTBarrister on the advocacy of doctors - I think it more accurate to say they are motivated by scientific rather than political correctness (which I take to be the essence of your point).
Killcolitis - it's not crazy if true. Add this to the list.
First, and as Spooky mentions, there were undoubtedly a number of different diets given the geographic and cultural diversity prevalent during that period (perhaps even Neandertal diets according to recent research). So which one is the standard? How was that determined?
Second, there is the assumption that we have somehow stopped evolving since our hunter-gatherer days and are not capable of processing the newer food sources emerging from the agricultural revolution. This doesn't make much sense either (also discussed in the Sci-Am article).
I'm not saying that the Paleo diet doesn't have positive attributes and therefore can't be beneficial, but to the degree it presents itself as being enlightened by principles of human evolution, then it loses credibility. In addition, and as I said in another thread, should it lead people away from consuming perfectly nutritious food (e.g. beans, whole grains) then it can become a zero sum game if not detrimental.
With respect to the comment by CTBarrister on the advocacy of doctors - I think it more accurate to say they are motivated by scientific rather than political correctness (which I take to be the essence of your point).
Killcolitis - it's not crazy if true. Add this to the list.
quote:With respect to the comment by CTBarrister on the advocacy of doctors - I think it more accurate to say they are motivated by scientific rather than political correctness (which I take to be the essence of your point).
Yes, I would agree with this - "scientific correctness" is a subspecies of political correctness but probably the more accurate description. The point is that they are more motivated by preserving their professional reputations than advocating any specific diet on behalf of a certain patient. However, someone like Dr. Shen, if he writes a book on diet as alluded to by vanessavy, has a powerful enough reputation and standing that he may not lose anything by endorsing a particular diet for certain classes of IBD patients who struggled with chronic pouchitis or other small bowel inflammation.
quote:Second, there is the assumption that we have somehow stopped evolving since our hunter-gatherer days and are not capable of processing the newer food sources emerging from the agricultural revolution. This doesn't make much sense either (also discussed in the Sci-Am article).
There is also a theory that processed foods are at the root of IBD (which is considered a modern disease by some, even though there are references to what sounds like IBD going back several hundred years). This theory holds that the modern technology to process foods has simply moved at a breakneck pace that has totally outstripped the pace of human digestive evolution. What does not make sense to me is to believe that the pace of biological evolution of human beings can keep up with certain modern technologies. Anthropologist have done studies that show that the pace of human evolution is slow. One example is the appendix - not needed for anything. There are other examples too numerous to list.
See this article just as an example of some of the issues that are frightening scientists:
http://www.zoneinworkshops.com...-mutually-exclusive/
Biological evolution happens over the course of thousands of years. The technology to process foods has exploded in the last 50 years - even within our lifetimes.
Scientific correctness is completely different than political correctness. Doctors have, in fact, endorsed diets - Weight Watchers, Atkins, and South Beach are diets that I've seen doctors endorse even when they have no monetary gain.
There must be a reason that doctors don't endorse the paleo diet. And again, there are some good things about the paleo diet. It's the cultish aspect of the diet that takes it over the edge.
Aging, rather than diet, may be the cause of disease. It only makes sense that our Mother (Nature) would try to get us in line and live the number of years that we're supposed to live. Humans have certainly skewed those years. I think that most other plants and animals on the earth have rather maintained their original lifespans. Humans think that it's better to live 2 or 3 or 4 times as long. It only makes sense that 'something' will crop up to try to restore the balance. "CT scans of mummies dating back up to 5,000 years and across four populations (ancient Egyptian, ancient Peruvian, Ancestral Puebloan and Unangan) encompassing agrarian, forager-farmer and hunter-gatherer lifestyles, shows clear and similar indication of atherosclerosis across all three lifestyle types and all four populations, rising in each case with age, suggesting that atherosclerosis is likely an inherent disorder of human aging. While the Egyptians, Peruvians and Puebloans may all have had an agricultural lifestyle, the Unungans of Alaska were hunter-gatherers. Given that mummies from all four of these cultures displayed the same level of atherosclerosis, a paleo diet would not seem to be protective against atherosclerosis and heart disease."
Human evolution is not slow. For example, alleles conferring lactose tolerance increased to high frequencies in Europe just a few thousand years after animal husbandry was invented, and recent increases in the number of copies of the gene for salivary amylase, which digests starch, appear to be related to agriculture.
It is interesting that the paleo diet was first popularized by a gastroenterologist based on his medical treatments of patients with UC, CD, and irritable bowel syndrome.
kathy
There must be a reason that doctors don't endorse the paleo diet. And again, there are some good things about the paleo diet. It's the cultish aspect of the diet that takes it over the edge.
Aging, rather than diet, may be the cause of disease. It only makes sense that our Mother (Nature) would try to get us in line and live the number of years that we're supposed to live. Humans have certainly skewed those years. I think that most other plants and animals on the earth have rather maintained their original lifespans. Humans think that it's better to live 2 or 3 or 4 times as long. It only makes sense that 'something' will crop up to try to restore the balance. "CT scans of mummies dating back up to 5,000 years and across four populations (ancient Egyptian, ancient Peruvian, Ancestral Puebloan and Unangan) encompassing agrarian, forager-farmer and hunter-gatherer lifestyles, shows clear and similar indication of atherosclerosis across all three lifestyle types and all four populations, rising in each case with age, suggesting that atherosclerosis is likely an inherent disorder of human aging. While the Egyptians, Peruvians and Puebloans may all have had an agricultural lifestyle, the Unungans of Alaska were hunter-gatherers. Given that mummies from all four of these cultures displayed the same level of atherosclerosis, a paleo diet would not seem to be protective against atherosclerosis and heart disease."
Human evolution is not slow. For example, alleles conferring lactose tolerance increased to high frequencies in Europe just a few thousand years after animal husbandry was invented, and recent increases in the number of copies of the gene for salivary amylase, which digests starch, appear to be related to agriculture.
It is interesting that the paleo diet was first popularized by a gastroenterologist based on his medical treatments of patients with UC, CD, and irritable bowel syndrome.
I don't know how Atkins could have ripped off the paleo diet since he wrote his original book in 1972. And the paleo diet study was done in 1975.quote:The Paleo diet is not new and not a fad diet. It is a lifestyle and Atkins actually ripped his diet off from the paleo diet.
kathy
quote:The point is that they are more motivated by preserving their professional reputations than advocating any specific diet on behalf of a certain patient.
I don't doubt that professional reputations are part of the equation. However, to the extent medicine is grounded in the scientific process, I would suggest that the motivation stems primarily from recognizing what is scientifically legitimate from what is not (I should not have used the term "correctness"). Reputations can be negatively affected by advocating diets lacking scientific support because we expect/demand medicine (and consequently doctors) to adhere to scientific standards.
quote:What does not make sense to me is to believe that the pace of biological evolution of human beings can keep up with certain modern technologies.
The point I was trying to make was much more modest. I was simply referring to the domestication of various crops like grass based grains (i.e. wheat, rice, corn, barley) or any other food not considered part of a paleolithic diet. As a species we have had plenty of time to adapt to these new (in a relative sense) sources. Modern processed foods is another matter altogether. One of the benefits of a Paleo diet is that it encourages people to avoid those kinds of "foods".
In general I think we are talking past each other and don't disagree in any meaningful way - the problem with not being able to talk face to face.
I don't know my daughter's medical treatments have been based on what is good science. She has been given cipro to treat her UC, when it's contraindicated for a child and there are no large scale studies showing its efficacy, she's been offered methotrexate even though the Cochrane Review clearly states it's ineffective. Other meds like rifaximin have only been used in small scale studies and other treatments like low dose alternate day prednisone are preferred by her GI solely based on her clinical experience (on a small number of children who she felt were similar to my daughter in her disease presentation and severity). In fact I'm startled at how little "good science" guides some of these treatments. As for scientific studies, the absence of studies on diet doesn't mean there's no scientific basis for their efficacy (or not, as the case may be). This is why i don't personally support the CCFA because I do feel that they should have taken a more active role in funding non pharma led treatments. That's why I look forward to the results of the Stanford trial, as I think it will be a good first step.
I don't know Dr. Shen but will be interested if he writes a book.
CJ Barrister, you must have led a sheltered life not to have enjoyed a theater movie with popcorn so please don't put the 98% of the rest of us down for our past enjoyments! As for the choice of beverages. I sneak a bottle of water inside my purse and by-pass the concession stand, unless with my grandson and I get him the kid's special that includes popcorn, a small pack a M & M's and small sprite. That's part of the experience.
I tried many diets when I had UC. I went to an alternative MD. She put me through a slow gentle cleansing diet into a diet with supplements that included flex seed oil, I gave myself weekly B-12 injections and I don't remember what all. It didn't help. I did several other diets and you name it. I had UC cookbooks et all. I now have a j-pouch. I try to eat healthy now and take supplements as needed so that the results of my blood testings are in the proper ranges.
I don't believe a diet is going to cure me. I hope you all prove me wrong I just feel like I've been there done that.
CJ Barrister, you must have led a sheltered life not to have enjoyed a theater movie with popcorn so please don't put the 98% of the rest of us down for our past enjoyments! As for the choice of beverages. I sneak a bottle of water inside my purse and by-pass the concession stand, unless with my grandson and I get him the kid's special that includes popcorn, a small pack a M & M's and small sprite. That's part of the experience.
I tried many diets when I had UC. I went to an alternative MD. She put me through a slow gentle cleansing diet into a diet with supplements that included flex seed oil, I gave myself weekly B-12 injections and I don't remember what all. It didn't help. I did several other diets and you name it. I had UC cookbooks et all. I now have a j-pouch. I try to eat healthy now and take supplements as needed so that the results of my blood testings are in the proper ranges.
I don't believe a diet is going to cure me. I hope you all prove me wrong I just feel like I've been there done that.
For those unfamiliar with the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate Diet), it is not a weight loss diet, but specifically for treating IBD and other bowel diseases, and devised by a parent of a child with UC. It is based on the theory of gut bacteria control through carbohydrate manipulation in the diet.
Some of the carb choices don't seem to make sense, but hey, the diet is about "specific carbohydrates" (hence SCD). It has nothing to do with predjudice against carbohydrates, but one woman's experience that she shared.
http://www.breakingtheviciousc...nce-behind-the-diet/
I don't think that the CCFA or the medical community at large is against diet's role in IBD, but that so far, they have not found any one diet that works for a significant amount of people. I suppose that work in defining sub-types of IBD will eventually show who will respond to particular drugs and diets also.
Even as far as j-pouch function goes, we find that there is wide individual variation to response to diet. But, sharing experiences help, I think, so we at least have some starting point.
Jan
Some of the carb choices don't seem to make sense, but hey, the diet is about "specific carbohydrates" (hence SCD). It has nothing to do with predjudice against carbohydrates, but one woman's experience that she shared.
http://www.breakingtheviciousc...nce-behind-the-diet/
I don't think that the CCFA or the medical community at large is against diet's role in IBD, but that so far, they have not found any one diet that works for a significant amount of people. I suppose that work in defining sub-types of IBD will eventually show who will respond to particular drugs and diets also.
Even as far as j-pouch function goes, we find that there is wide individual variation to response to diet. But, sharing experiences help, I think, so we at least have some starting point.
Jan
quote:CJ Barrister, you must have led a sheltered life not to have enjoyed a theater movie with popcorn so please don't put the 98% of the rest of us down for our past enjoyments!
I never put anyone down! I said I did not understand the social or cultural tradition in this regard and I don't. Not understanding something is not equal to putting it down. I personally cannot eat popcorn and not being able to eat something is not the same thing as leading a "sheltered life." That IS a putdown. I have probably seen more theatrical movies than most people have, just without the popcorn. I don't believe the inability to eat popcorn in any way devalues my moviegoing experience.
Regarding prejudice against carbohydrates - the SCD diet does not allow chick peas or soybeans, whereas the Paleo Diet does. I don't understand that either. Someone is going to have to explain that one to me. I get that chick peas and soybeans tend to be high in carbs but they are high in complex carbs and very nutritious.
As recently as lunch today we have debated diet in my office. My co-workers, who do not eat very well and have gained weight, are all going on Weight Watchers next week, so they all ate burgers and sweet potato fries today. They all seem to think WW is a superior diet to Paleo, SCD, Atkins, South Beach, etc. their reasoning being it is a portion-control intensive diet. However WW allows processed carbs within those small portions.
TE marie- I don't think anyone said diet will act as a cure. However, controlling one's diet to limit foods that will contribute to bacterial overgrowth in the pouch is not only a reasonable strategy but for some of us, it may be an essential strategy. I think it is dangerous to think that diet does not matter at all, and because we CAN eat anything, we should. The emerging consensus is that diet matters. Figuring out the right diet for you is the trick.
Weight Watchers is a sound weight loss program that incorporates behavior modification. It's endorsed and supported by many in the medical field because it permit's one to still enjoy occasional foods that are not supported by other diets. If one doesn't feel deprived of certain foods, they are more likely to be successful in their weight loss and behavior modification goals.
Sue
Sue
CT I did not say that diet did not matter. I try to eat healthy and that means getting in my vegetables and fruits, eating Greek yogurt vs ice cream, keeping my meat portions to the size of a deck of cards and only eating beef once a week if that, etc. I didn't want to detail it out but that's what I mean by healthy. I don't eat popcorn and you are right it's probably not good for a lot of us now, but some can eat it.
About you not understanding the practice. It has been common practice since the beginning of theater movies to sell popcorn and you are right. The prices are inflated and the theaters concession sales probably are greater than their ticket sales. So if you say you never ever ever had popcorn in your life then that is the way it is. I believe we were refering to our entire lives not right now. I know you've seen a lot of movies. (I remember the discussion about Prometheus and the Alien did come out of a Astronaut that did survive - if you believe she got off of the planet. I will defer to your memory on that one.)
I just want the conversations on here to be less confrontational. Your post was condescending.
Your post regarding your co-workers is the same. Weight watchers is a good diet and I know as I've been on them all, including the Nurtrisystem cardboard diet. They will learn portion control and how to cook for themselves. They will fast learn that cooking with fresh ingredients from scratch will yield them more better tasting food than going to McDonalds. After a while just the smell of the grease of McDonalds food will make them say they can't believe they ever ate there. They will learn, if they want french fries how to bake vs fry them and they will taste better. Best of all they will learn how to cook and save money. So give them a break and quit judging everyone. They have not had the reasons to study their diets that you have for all of these years. Loosing weight vs not is a huge start and it is better than a fad diet.
About you not understanding the practice. It has been common practice since the beginning of theater movies to sell popcorn and you are right. The prices are inflated and the theaters concession sales probably are greater than their ticket sales. So if you say you never ever ever had popcorn in your life then that is the way it is. I believe we were refering to our entire lives not right now. I know you've seen a lot of movies. (I remember the discussion about Prometheus and the Alien did come out of a Astronaut that did survive - if you believe she got off of the planet. I will defer to your memory on that one.)
I just want the conversations on here to be less confrontational. Your post was condescending.
Your post regarding your co-workers is the same. Weight watchers is a good diet and I know as I've been on them all, including the Nurtrisystem cardboard diet. They will learn portion control and how to cook for themselves. They will fast learn that cooking with fresh ingredients from scratch will yield them more better tasting food than going to McDonalds. After a while just the smell of the grease of McDonalds food will make them say they can't believe they ever ate there. They will learn, if they want french fries how to bake vs fry them and they will taste better. Best of all they will learn how to cook and save money. So give them a break and quit judging everyone. They have not had the reasons to study their diets that you have for all of these years. Loosing weight vs not is a huge start and it is better than a fad diet.