Probiotics or no probiotics

I have heard that it is good to vary the probiotics and not take the same thing every day for a long time or they can cause different kinds of overgrowth.  So I have several different kinds and just randomly take them.  I also eat probiotic foods like yogurt and sauerkraut. 

@Sara Marie posted:

I also eat probiotic foods like yogurt and sauerkraut.

Don't forget the 3 Special Ks of probiotics- Kombucha, Kefir and Kimchi! I also opt for these natural probiotics. Yogurt with Manuka Honey or Beech Honeydew honey is a large component of my diet. As for supplements, I am not convinced that they are worth the very great expense on some cases.

@CTBarrister posted:

Don't forget the 3 Special Ks of probiotics- Kombucha, Kefir and Kimchi! I also opt for these natural probiotics. Yogurt with Manuka Honey or Beech Honeydew honey is a large component of my diet. As for supplements, I am not convinced that they are worth the very great expense on some cases.

Tell me more about the beech honeydew honey.  I have never heard of this.  Where do you get your manuka honey?  That's usually pretty expensive.  I'd love to be a regular with that but I just use local honey now.  I use coconut yogurt but I don't know if they have coconut kefir-I don't think I have seen it.  I don't like kombucha or any fizzy drinks, really.  Is there non-spicy kimchi?  Spicy stuff gives me watery stools!  I love it but I have to stay away from it. I don't use the expensive probiotics all that often. I do have some Visbiome in the fridge just in case I feel the need for it, for example, if I feel a touch of pouchitis coming on I have noticed Visbiome can curtail that pretty quickly.

I get Manuka Honey at Trader Joe's. It's very good and reasonably priced compared to elsewhere. As far as the Beech Honeydew honey it can be ordered on Amazon. It's amazing in taste, similar properties to Manuka but better tasting. I will give you the Amazon link. Only thing is I don't like the container that much.

https://www.amazon.com/RAW-Hon...Caps%2C88&sr=8-4

Apparently unavailable now but I ordered it fairly recently.

By the way, there is mild and non-spicy Kimchi, although it's typically made very spicy. I have seen various levels of heat on it in certain stores.

@CTBarrister posted:

I get Manuka Honey at Trader Joe's. It's very good and reasonably priced compared to elsewhere. As far as the Beech Honeydew honey it can be ordered on Amazon. It's amazing in taste, similar properties to Manuka but better tasting. I will give you the Amazon link. Only thing is I don't like the container that much.

https://www.amazon.com/RAW-Hon...Caps%2C88&sr=8-4

Apparently unavailable now but I ordered it fairly recently.

What's wrong with the container.  Is it plastic? 

I drink lifeway organic kefir everyday.

love to eat sauerkraut but afraid of the consequences.  Does the pouch tolerates sauerkraut???

@Sara Marie posted:

What's wrong with the container.  Is it plastic?

It's plastic, but the real problem is it is not conducive to complete drainage like most commercial honey containers. The Kiwis have industrious native bees and make great honey, but container engineering isn't a strength. They are all the same, with a wide neck as opposed to the small necked "flip" containers common in the USA, which enable the user to turn the container upside down on its head so one can squeeze out every drop of the expensive honeys.

@grateful posted:

I drink lifeway organic kefir everyday.

love to eat sauerkraut but afraid of the consequences.  Does the pouch tolerates sauerkraut???

My pouch doesn't seem to mind saurkraut!  Of course with anything crunchy like this, it's important to chew it well.  There are other fermented veggies & fruits that aren't cruciferous: I like preserved lemons a lot.  The brining of the cabbage (or other stuff) also helps to cook it, so it's not actually raw, making it easier to digest.

@CTBarrister posted:

It's plastic, but the real problem is it is not conducive to complete drainage like most commercial honey containers. The Kiwis have industrious native bees and make great honey, but container engineering isn't a strength. They are all the same, with a wide neck as opposed to the small necked "flip" containers common in the USA, which enable the user to turn the container upside down on its head so one can squeeze out every drop of the expensive honeys.

Aha.  I always use water to get ALL the precious honey out.  I put warm water in and shake it up, making it into a honey water. Do you think the manuka and the beech honeydew affect your system differently than local raw honey? What is that difference?  I notice that all that stuff from AU/NZ is pretty expensive.  For me, the local honey seems to help with allergies. Something from afar can't really do that.  I know that manuka is rumored to have an antibiotic effect.  I even have a tube of pure manuka that I use instead of antibiotic ointment on skin irritations (with a bandaid of course, so everything doesn't get sticky).  It seems to help them heal quickly, but I have never tried local honey on them for comparison.  I guess I should try that next time!

The Manuka and Beech Honeydew honeys have well known anti-inflammatory and antibiotic properties. Which is why they are in demand products.

@CTBarrister posted:

The Manuka and Beech Honeydew honeys have well known anti-inflammatory and antibiotic properties. Which is why they are in demand products.

I know about the anti-inflammatory and antibiotic properties for sure.  I just wondered if you personally noticed a difference after you started using these types of honey instead of the usual, or if you have ever done a comparison.  I like to hear about the anecdotal stuff, you know, people's real experiences! 

@Sara Marie posted:

I know about the anti-inflammatory and antibiotic properties for sure.  I just wondered if you personally noticed a difference after you started using these types of honey instead of the usual, or if you have ever done a comparison.  I like to hear about the anecdotal stuff, you know, people's real experiences! 

I believe that anyone who claims to report such things anecdotally is reporting misinformation. I have seen more than a few posts on this board on things like (for example) oil of oregano was responsible for complete remission of IBD after 2 weeks. Next we heard 2 weeks later that same poster reported he was in the hospital with severe pouchitis and that we was wrong about the oil of oregano "curing" his IBD.

These kinds of things are not palpable in days or weeks but only after many months of use- if at all (see below). Same thing with Remicade. I know many people who after 2 months said "no change", but 10 months later their scopes showed almost total remission of inflammation. You can't "feel" inflammation recede in your body. You only notice when symptoms abate. 2 very different things because I don't have symptoms at all and I have inflammation, that is concerning.

For all the above reasons, and with all due respect, I believe that almost 90% of the anecdotal posts you are referring to are either nonsense or else making conclusions not based on the scientific facts of what's going on inside your body. Scopes are fact.  If you have limited or no symptoms and a lot of inflammation, there is simply no way to know without getting scoped.  It's for this reason and others that anecdotal reporting like I mentioned above is dangerous.

Scientific studies for our population is sadly lacking. Each microbiome is unique and studies on digestion can't be relied upon, especially when the study participants have colons! 

Whether anyone can feel inflammation receding in the body can't be proved.  So strictly speaking (and with all due respect), that's an unscientific statement. 

So anyway I like to hear the experiences of those with a j-pouch, since we don't really have much more to go on. I will rephrase my question to you: how did these types of honey affect your symptoms? 

@Sara Marie posted:

I will rephrase my question to you: how did these types of honey affect your symptoms?

As I said above, I have no symptoms. So your question isn't answerable. I am also not the only person with no symptoms who has been found to have inflammation in the ileum and the J Pouch. Which again suggests that searching for anecdotal evidence where none is capable of existing, in lieu of demonstrative evidence as in scope results or scientific studies, isn't helpful.

On the other hand consumption of anti inflammatory food and teas is very likely to discourage bacterial overgrowth caused by pooling of stool above the J pouch inlet, which leads to the very common inflammatory pattern my and many other long term pouches have.

Remicade, in many cases, completely eliminates symptoms without completely eliminating inflammation. In my case the inflammation has receded in the J pouch but not at the neoterminal ileum and inlet where the backsplash stool occurs. I have been told by a succession of 3 pouch experts at Cleveland Clinic and Yale that this is a common inflammatory pattern due to backsplash stool and resultant pooling of stool above the J pouch. I have also read a number of posts describing the same inflammatory pattern as mine, with little or no symptoms. The counteracting strategy is to bolster the gut with natural antibiotic agents.  You cannot give up just because there are no symptoms.  The inflammation, especially if it is persistent and chronic, is and should be concerning, and you should not stop treating it because you feel good.

I appreciate this response!

probiotics can cause SIBO.. I would not suggest using them.

Sara Marie, sauerkraut, kimchi and the like lose the health benefit of being a probiotic when they are cooked, much the same way vegetables lose their vitamins when we cook them to death. Fermented foods are intended to be eaten in their raw form for them to be at the best as probiotics. If you want to add them to something that you are cooking like a soup or whatever to add them at the end of the cooking cycle. You can also add them after cooking the ( the soup) and you reserve more of the health benefit. Good luck in your quest for a more natural approach to pouch health.

Aimee

no... can cause SIBO and you dont want that.. Talked about alot in the Jpouch Facebook group.

I have been having random probiotics and eating probiotic foods for years and I don't have SIBO.  Is that unusual?

Quality probiotics are fine for most and very helpful for some. They aren’t all the same, of course, and there’s not much evidence for most of them. It can be very difficult to figure out if they are helping. Sometimes people make broad claims here without much (or any) evidence. Sometimes people think personalized advice from their doctor applies equally to everyone. And sometimes people are overconfident.

@Sara Marie It’s not even slightly unusual that you don’t have SIBO even though you consume probiotics. Most people who take probiotics don’t have SIBO. There’s more evidence for probiotics treating SIBO than causing it, but I’d take it all with a grain of salt. Pay attention to your body and you’ll generally do fine.

Scott, I for one was hoping you would weigh in.  Thanks Scott.

Aimee

@Scott F posted:

Quality probiotics are fine for most and very helpful for some. They aren’t all the same, of course, and there’s not much evidence for most of them. It can be very difficult to figure out if they are helping. Sometimes people make broad claims here without much (or any) evidence. Sometimes people think personalized advice from their doctor applies equally to everyone. And sometimes people are overconfident.

@Sara Marie It’s not even slightly unusual that you don’t have SIBO even though you consume probiotics. Most people who take probiotics don’t have SIBO. There’s more evidence for probiotics treating SIBO than causing it, but I’d take it all with a grain of salt. Pay attention to your body and you’ll generally do fine.

Yeast based probiotics are ok, but thats about it.. My info is from Dr Shen the top GI in jpouches, and a member thats in his inner circle that posts regularly in the FB Jpouch group.

@Pouchomarx posted:

Yeast based probiotics are ok, but thats about it.. My info is from Dr Shen the top GI in jpouches, and a member thats in his inner circle that posts regularly in the FB Jpouch group.

Good to know what Dr. Shen recommends.  Can you give examples of yeast-based probiotics?

Perenterol is a medicine of that kind. But I have never used it since I got a pouch. Has anyone experiences using such drugs containing saccharomyces boulardii (a special yeast) for treating (chronic) inflammation of the pouch and small intestine?

Florastor (another yeast probiotic) is sometimes used to prevent C. diff infections. I use Visbiome, which is just lots of (usually) helpful bacteria.

Not sure if this might help but The Vegetarian/Vegan diet is high in Probiotics and prebiotics, for an example Oatmeal is a prebiotic and yogurt is a probiotic so if you mix those together you got a perfect witch's potion