Clean by Dr Alejandro Junger?

As a rule I treat anything with the words "cleanse," "toxin," or "clean" as a fraud until proven otherwise. I suppose it's okay for moist wipes...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean...

I think he means that the colon cleanse or detox diets are not based on any actual valid science. They haven't been proven to actually do anything. You can fast and be on clear liquids for a few days with same effect. The colon does not store "toxins" that any diet might remove. Plus, if you also consider that we do not have a colon, the whole point is moot. It won't hurt you though.

But, people seem to like to pay for the treatment, even high colonic enemas in a spa setting. They say they feel great afterwards. Maybe they were constipated...

Jan

I didn't mean to be obscure. Thanks for translating, Jan!

I read more on the website http://www.cleanprogram.com/ and it seems that the concepts portrayed there are quite sound. But, what is not clear is that you need to buy the products there to be healthy. Basically, it is about eating a diet you know is healthful, taking fish oil, vitamin D, and probiotics. Not anything new or secret.

But if you feel you need the guidance and support, I suppose it can be OK. Just don't expect soem sort of magic. I saw no scientific studies showing it is superior to your own diet and supplement program. Still, it is perfectly safe.

Jan

My mom was the queen of every diet fad on the market...Went from grapefruit to high protien to horse urine injections etc but her favorite was a 30 day detox fast...she was allowed this rather tasty drink of spring water, maple syurp, caynne pepper and lemon juice (think spicy lemonaide)...drank it all day for 3-10 days and then slowly introduced foods one by one to her diet (started with grapes, then chicken breast and alternated a fruit, a protien, a veggie etc until she had a balanced diet...Carbs were the last food group to be reintroduced)...she would lose about 20lbs each time (and gain them back almost as quickly..but she said that it made her feel great...I don't really reccomend it)
My mom was a nurse and a great believer in the latest trend including high colonics (did them herself) and various colon cleansers...she said that it helped her fibromyalgia etc..Don't really know if it is true.
As long as you do not dehydrate yourself doing these things then why not...just be careful of any and all nasty side effects.
Sharon

Horse urine injections?! Really?! And she was a nurse?! A real, licensed nurse with education?! Amazing...

Hey, I've done the "pay someone a lot of money to help you starve yourself" route. Not because there was any magic to it, but because I lacked the will power to lose weight on my own. I did gain back half the weight I lost, but I also learned how little food we need to actually live well. Unfortunately, they weren't able to teach me how to dislike food enough to keep my portions tiny.

But never did understand the fad diets, since eventually you come off of them and return to the real world.

Queen of AC, if you decide to try this "Clean" diet, let us know how it works for you.

Jan

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But never did understand the fad diets, since eventually you come off of them and return to the real world.

As far as the so called cleanse and/or starvation diets, I agree with you. Because those diets are not built for the long term anyway.

I have been on a low carb/no sugar diet since the end of December (sort of a Paleo diet). I have stayed very disciplined with it. I do not starve nor am I ever hungry nor do I have any cravings. I have lost 25 pounds, but my primary incentive is to reduce sugar and carb intake which we know can have an effect on bacterial overgrowth in the J Pouch, unlike these other silly diets that are not proven to do anything.

While the empirical proof in the form of my scope results are not in yet, I must say that I feel very good, have firmly resisted all external attempts to deviate me from the diet (except for having a piece of birthday cake on my birthday back in April) and I intend to stick with it the rest of my life.

The diet I am on has been endorsed by my primary care doctor (who only seems to care that my blood test results and weight are extremely good in his eyes, and that is how he is judging the diet) and a client of mine who is a registered dietician. I invited the client to lunch and told her I wanted to discuss my diet. After discussing it with her she mentioned to me that she thought I should try to eat more starchy vegetables (she mentioned butternut squash and carrots) but otherwise it sounded good. I have given up all dairy (I drink soy milk) and take house brand probiotic supplements, which my client dietician believed were imperative. She recommended I take a stronger probiotic.

I have not eaten any pasta since November 2012 when I was on vacation in Key West. I do not miss it. The only processed food in my diet had been turkey sausage, but I have now eliminated that as well, as I found some natural turkey sausage at Whole Foods Market. Processed foods are a great evil, in fact I would say they are the most underrated evil known to the human race. Almost nobody says or does anything about it because the restaurant and food industries prey upon the affinity for processed foods. It is very easy to eat healthy, but most people choose not to do it and a lot of money, a TON of money, is being made on those choices. The only people who speak out really are the ones who are selling the so called fad diets and although they are speaking the truth, it is not for the sake of truth, but also to make a buck.

Aren't many things, even those considered 'healthy', processed foods? Soy milk is processed from soy beans. Probiotics are processed from something. Rather than label things evil, I think each person should try to figure out what works best for them and not make anyone feel guilty for what they eat.

I'm a vegetarian. It works for me. I would never think that it's the best thing for anyone else. There have been many 'fad' diets that work very, very well for some people - like the South Beach Diet, Atkins Diet, and Paleo Diet. I believe that the principle behind all three of these diets can be found on the internet and would cost no money. Even buying a book about most diets isn't a huge outlay of money.

kathy

Well, that is a valid point of view, but what about this epidemic of obesity in our society and the resulting health issues? I may be wrong but I believe that some empirical studies have correlated obesity to consumption of processed foods. I also think that there are various theories out there that inflammatory bowel disease is a somewhat modern disease that evolved along with the technology in processing of foods. I realize we can debate somewhat the definition of what is or is not processed and soy milk and probiotics could test that definition, but these are things everyone should be thinking about in evaluating their diet. I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty but to critically evaluate what they are eating. And perhaps some of us should feel guilty about how we have eaten. I know I do. I was an avowed foodie, and a member of a Dinner Club, and the restaurant industry made a lot of money off of me. I am not necessarily proud of this history. I feel like I got away with something, all these years, and it is not a good feeling. I feel like I participated in a con on my fellow man and now it is on me to make up for that.

The Paleo diet is a fad diet. It might be one that works for you but it is a fad.

Sue

How can it be a fad diet when this is how human beings ate for thousands and thousands of years?

I believe that the link between obesity and diet is that we eat too much. I don't think it has anything to do with what it is that we're eating. If a typical daily allowance of 2000 calories is the norm, I would think that includes some sort of activity. If one isn't active, and most of us aren't really, then the amount of calories burned will not be equal to the amount of calories consumed.

What would be an excellent 'device' would be something that indicated just how many calories we were burning and then the 'device' would portion out the correct caloric amount in food. Portion control is more important than processed food control.

Regarding the Paleo diet - if it were, in fact, how humans have been eating for thousands of years, I would think that would include eating meat raw and eating every part of an animal, including all those yucky bits. Here's more information about the Paleo diet from Scientific American. This article notes that cutting down on highly processed foods is one good thing about the Paleo diet. That would include white bread, artificial cheese, certain cold cuts, potato chips, and sugary cereals.

It's very interesting that the hunters and gatherers from Africa (considered to be ground zero for humankind), had diets plentiful in seeds, nuts, and roots. The !Kung peoples even ingested milk and corn meal.

kathy

I'm in total agreement about exercise. If you look at an American farmer or rancher, you will see that they eat copious amounts of scratch-made fat laden foods. However, they also get more exercise than the office worker. It's not necessarily our diet, it's our portions and lack of exercise. I'm not a fan of many processed foods, but a lot of 'healthy' food is processed so it cannot be categorically dismissed.

The Paleo diet is a fad diet. We really don't know what early man ate and food has adapted so much since then we don't even have access to those paleo foods.

Sue

The principal advantage of the Paleo diet for someone with J Pouch inflammation is that it offers an organized way in which to reduce sugar and carbohydrate intake and thus reduce bacterial overgrowth in the J Pouch. To me, however, the diet is an extension of common sense as far as what one can do to control bacterial overgrowth in the J Pouch. I think the South Beach Diet is somewhat similar but it allows some of the processed carbs back in after the initial weeks of the diet. The Paleoites believe that complex carbs from whole foods is the better approach and eliminate the processed carbs totally. From the standpoint of setting up optimal J Pouch health, I think the Paleoites win that debate. I have followed this approach.

The Paleo diet has been somewhat validated by two registered dieticians I have spoken to. They have not endorsed the diet per se but the approach of eliminating processed carbs in favor of complex carbs from legumes and other veggies, and incorporating monounsaturated fats (natural nut butters vs. processed). One of the registered dieticians I heard gave a seminar to our local chamber of commerce. She mocked the elimination of egg yolks from some foods and said whole eggs are one of the most nutritious things you can eat as a source of protein and fat, whole eggs meaning the yolk and the white. Ditto with natural peanut and almond butters. I have gradually shifted from natural peanut butter to natural almond butter which is completely a personal taste issue. I spread natural almond butter on sliced apples and this and edamame is my typical lunch. Edamame is a great source of complex carbs.

I used to think it was all about the calories, since that is what just makes sense. But, then there was research a few years ago that found that foods high in sugar, fat, and salt actually triggered a chemical change in the brain by the release of dopamine, making us feel good. So, it is not so much that the sugary, fatty, salty yummy stuff is nutritionally bad, but that it is like heroin to the foodie.
http://blog.cleveland.com/pdex...built_to_love_s.html

I find that if I avoid that stuff, I don't miss it. But, if it is there and I have some, I want more...

I'm thinking that the snack food industry probably has known about this a long, long time.

Jan

quote:

I'm thinking that the snack food industry probably has known about this a long, long time.

Damn right they have and that is the evil that I referred to earlier in the thread.........no different than heroin dealers in my book. This is what causes the overeating and the obesity. But to get this response the food has to be processed correctly with the right combo of sugar, salt and fat. I was an addict, but I have cured myself of the addiction.

After my mom's manic relationship with food and diet I kind of developed a personal technic for eating...things can not be more than 2 steps from that natural form for me to eat them...I like my fish with heads and tails, fruits and veggies and meats walk into my house in their original form and then I do whatever I want to them. I like to know what goes into my food/meal and the best way to control it all is to shop for fresh and cook it all myself...I have 1000 1/2hr recipes for fridge to table meals with little prep time...it helps that I can buy from the farmer's market 2xs/week.
Being really alergic to stuff put the kabosh on canned and processed foods...but I do understand people who work a 10hr day and have no desire to cook...preparing and freezing is a good idea or even only cooking every other day...I haven't been on a diet in years, prefer to lower intake and increase output...it usually does the trick.
I divide life into exercise and activity...you need both but it is easier to just increase your activity level (parking further away, doing 1 walk around the mall before the window shopping, leaving the car at home etc).
Increase your activity by 10% and decrease your input by 10% and you will loose 10-15% of your body mass without too much suffering...And no diet.
Sharon

Well, I don't know about evil, but there has always been stuff out there that can be the same trigger. Home made goodies are no better in that regard. Maybe worse, because they taste so much better. Who can resist a warm chocolate chip cookie?

Most of my life I had no idea that there was a dopamine rush that was driving going back for another cookie. It is not like something you feel, like being high. It is more of a, "Damn, I sure feel pleased right now...I deserve another serving!" My rational mind told me it was about will power, but it is not.

Around the same time I was in my medical weight management program this "news" about the brain on sugar, fat, and salt came out. It then clicked with me that while I am eating my boring bars and drinking my boring shakes, 960 calories a day, it worked BECAUSE it was boring. Plus, the sugar, fat, and salt were controlled.

I think the Paleo diet is popular because it gives reasonable guidelines for a reasonable diet, as long as you don't get into the "must be like a caveman" sort of thing. It just naturally steers you to the fresh foods idea. Some people are just a little militant about it, just like some vegans can be. It is not a religion.

The dietician from our class would say, shop the outer aisles where the fresh foods are for most of your diet. Limit the inner aisles where the food is in a box or can. I make my own soup, but I don't make my own broth. I eat fresh salads, but I don't make my own oil and vinegar. Common sense stuff, since we do live in a modern world.

Jan

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I make my own soup, but I don't make my own broth.

With the advent of the crockpot, it is easy to do, if you time everything correctly. I made chicken soup last week using fresh chicken parts with a fresh soup mix sold in the produce section of my local supermarket, consisting of all fresh pack veggies: parsnip, turnip, dill, carrots, celery, leek and an onion. I also threw in some fresh cauliflower and broccoli because the dietician stressed eating cruciferous vegetables. I also added a bay leaf, salt and pepper. Cooking the said ingredients in water will create its own broth.

No noodles or dumplings of course. The requisite carbs are in the vegetables.

As far as pre-packaged or canned broths, totally apart from the processing issue, I find them all to be semi-disgusting in taste compared to what I can cook up on my own. Although I am no longer a foodie per se, I have not lost my sense of taste, and good soup broth is one thing that is hard to fake with me.

I haven't found the canned broths disgusting, but whatever suits your fancy. Don't care much for the bullion though, too salty. I just don't like messing with the bones and stuff because I always wind up with pieces of bone or tendon in my bowl (THAT I find disgusting!). Since I make a big batch of soup every week (12 big servings- too big for my crock pot) and keep my freezer full of various soups, the canned broth is one time saver I have opted for. But, I use all fresh meat and vegetables. I do use a variety of pastas, gnocchi, beans, rice, etc. in small handfuls to each evening's "thaw." But, low on the carbs for sure, especially compared to a side dish. Soup is a great way to get all your needs in, including fluids.

Jan

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I think the Paleo diet is popular because it gives reasonable guidelines for a reasonable diet, as long as you don't get into the "must be like a caveman" sort of thing.

Just to be clear, the paleo diet can be reasonable up to a point. But if people begin to dismiss perfectly good food for fear that it is not paleolitic, then it becomes unreasonable. I'm pretty sure that is what you meant by the "must eat like a caveman" comment but wanted to bring that out in sharper relief. It is a point that I think needs to be emphasized.

Me? I like a mediterranean diet.

Two thumbs up Tin Can, I wholeheartedly agree.

Sue

Yes, that is what I meant. Some folks are positively militant about it, when it is supposed to be for your own health and well being, not an endurance contest!

Canned foods can be very nutritious, depending on what is in the can. Highly processed stuff like most of the snacks that are available cease to be like real food because of all the additives, and boosted sugar, salt, and fat levels. But, even those are not dangerous in small quantities. It is sticking to a small quantity that is tough...

Jan

I am not even sure what the strict Paleo Diet calls for but I just follow the principles of the Diet and common sense. The principles are no processed carbs, no sugar (except as naturally occurring in fruit!!!!!!!!!) and balanced portions of proteins, monounsaturated fats and complex carbs. I think the strict or orthodox Paleoites don't do dairy and for a long while I was eating probiotic yogurts but the only reason was the probiotic content. I ultimately decided that the freeze dried probiotic supplements were the way for me to go.

As far as being a caveman, someone mentioned eating entire animals including blood and there are some vestiges of that in modern society. For example, my father's side of the family were Eastern European immigrants and two of the dishes I grew up eating were pig's feet, a gelatinous dish created by boiling the pig's feet into a stew, refrigerating it and culling the fat off the top, and Hurka, which are pig's intestines stuffed with meat, rice and spices (the Scottish make a very similar dish called Haggis which is the national dish of Scotland). These dishes are vestiges of an older time when these cultures believed (chiefly for economic reasons) that you had to use the entire animal and not waste any of it. In the case of pig's feet my parents still make it and I actually rather like it, but I have not eaten any since I commenced my diet.

I eat meat and occasionally I will eat red meat, although never more than once a week as a rule. When I eat steak, I like it cooked very rare so I can taste the blood and I feel like this alone puts me in touch with the caveman inside me, to the extent that there is such a thing or such a need to get in touch. But it is really a personal taste issue as I like the taste of raw meat and raw sushi as well.

I do not eat any organ meats, although growing up, my mother often would cook up chicken hearts which she made in a wine sauce and served with white rice, and calf's liver which she would saute with bacon and onions. She also made chopped chicken livers in a pate with bacon and onions. These were all largely due to what I would call the family culinary culture. As I became an adult I stopped eating many of these foods but I now recognize many of these traditions are rooted in early Paleo diets even though we may not know precisely what these cave dwellers were eating at all times. I also recall turnips being served more frequently and something my Grandpa called "rudabagas" which may actually have been a type of turnip which is essentially a root. The diet I observed growing up was much richer in the so called root vegetables which we know these primitive cultures had to be eating because such vegetables are more weather and elements resistant than others.

I don't think any food is 'evil'. If someone has no other option, then they eat what they can. The problem with casting that wide net is that it just doesn't work. For instance, I'd love to be able to eat brown rice rather than white, but it just doesn't work with my system. The same with other 'brown' foods.

Rutabagas are somewhat like turnips but tastier in my opinion. They have a beautiful yellow/apricot color and they blend very well with mashed or regular potatoes.

If a paleo diet works for you that's wonderful. But dismissing other diets or foods may have people thinking that there's something wrong with what they are eating. I think that's what most of us are trying to say.

kathy

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may have people thinking that there's something wrong with what they are eating

There is actually nothing wrong with people critically evaluating their own diets and I hope everyone does that. I also never said that any food was evil. What I said was evil was the people who make the processed foods, calculate a dopamine effect and breed obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure and diabetes in our society. I trust that the people who read my posts are (1) intelligent adults, and (2) capable of making their own choices after evaluating what is right for them. I am not asking anyone to follow me or my path and I am different (as I have already stated many times) because I have an 18 year history of J Pouch inflammation that I was compelled to bring under control by all means necessary based on my last scope. I do think people with similar histories to mine should critically evaluate what they are eating and it is important to do so. I also indicated I have spoken to my primary care doctor and 2 professional registered dieticians and encourage anyone trying ANY diet to speak to their doctor and a registered dietician(s), as I did.

quote:

Processed foods are a great evil, in fact I would say they are the most underrated evil known to the human race.

I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood this then.

kathy

Food is an inanimate object which, by definition, cannot be evil. Processed foods that have sugar/salt/fats in the right combination produce a dopamine effect (discussed by Jan Dollar) that makes the user feel good and causes the user to go into feeding frenzies. This is calculated by chemists who devise the formulas for these processed snack foods, at the behest of those who produce these foods. I was also a victim of these evil people, an addict of dopamine. But I cured my addiction to it before it cost me my health and maybe my J Pouch.

I don't know that snack food producers knew about this dopamine connection when they invented the Twinkie. I think they just wanted to sell products and people seem to like those snack foods. I guess I misspoke when I said that I suspected they knew about it. What I meant was that the snack food industry knew that people had difficulty resisting this stuff. I haven't seen any data (yet) that is similar to the tobacco industry and their increasing nicotine levels, knowing its addictive potential. Time will tell.

But, now we know so we can make decisions about this stuff.

Jan

quote:

I don't know that snack food producers knew about this dopamine connection when they invented the Twinkie.

If they didn't, they may have refined or adjusted the recipe of the Twinkie over time to produce maximum dopamine effect, and then advertised the recipe change by saying the Twinkie has a "GREAT NEW TASTE."

It is interesting to note that Hostess, the company which makes the Twinkie, went into bankruptcy proceedings a few years ago but the Trustee elected to hang onto and continue to sell the Twinkie, which is by far Hostess's most profitable product.

I don't know if you saw the 2009 black comedy film "Zombieland", starring Woody Harrelson and Jesse Eisenberg, which spoofs this issue. In the movie, a strain of "mad cow disease" causes "mad person disease", which overruns the United States and turns everyone into vicious zombies, except for a few lucky souls who are immune to the disease. Woody Harrelson cheekily plays one of the few unaffected surviving citizens, a man called Tallahasee. Tallahasee, despite the violence, chaos and total anarchy caused by viciious zombies running amok, is nevertheless obsessed with finding Twinkies. In the movie, Tallahassee embarks on a ruthless quest to find Twinkies, which proves to be at great personal safety risk to not only himself, but also that of his newfound friend and co-survivor, the Jesse Eisenberg character. In the so called "Twinkie scene", Tallahassee finds a supermarket inhabited by zombies. Nevertheless, armed with weapons, Tallahasee enters and brutally kills several zombies in order to retrieve a precious box of Twinkies. The scene is on the Internet, 1:50 long and although it's funny, I chose not to post it because of the violence and language.

Don't get me started on Hostess; the company went bankrupt because they were in the money laundering business. They could have sold a lot more product had they been running an honest business.

Food manufacturers know exactly what they are doing and they do develop processed foods that have addictive qualities. They hire food scientists and spend millions of dollars creating snacks that have the right mouth sensation, taste and texture to keep people attracted to them.

There are some people who are more susceptible to the dopamine effect of foods. Foods that are rich in congealed fats and sugar can be difficult to avoid for those who get increased pleasure from eating them. Foods with these characteristics will always be a problem for those in the group that can't just have one cookie. It's much like a cigarette for a smoker and and alcohol for the alcoholic. Many recovering alcoholics who are early in recovery eat a lot of sugar to get that 'high'. But, not everyone is affected that way so that is why calling foods evil is just a generalization. They might be evil to some people, but certainly not to all.

Knowing one's self and behaviors and discovering the real reasons why one gravitates toward sugar and fat can be the first start in changing one's eating habits. You can't blame the manufacturers of these foods, but you can stop buying those products and supporting that business.

Sue

Yep, no different that alcohol or tobacco. Once you are educated, it is up to you to decide if you can "handle" it or if the pleasure is worth the risks associated with it. Free country and all of that. Unless they are forcing you to buy it and consume it, it is free choice. But, then I get crazy when I see soft drink machines in schools (because the schools get money from the beverage companies to allow them). I don't think kids have enough sense to make good choices.

Jan